FULL TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERVIEW WITH MONICA MACOVEI, ROMANIAN MINISTER OF JUSTICE 00:00 Establishing mechanisms to fight corruption in Romania “We had a Prosecutor’s office, anti-corruption Prosecutor’s office set up in 2002 with a big celebration that we have an anti corruption Prosecutor’s Office but its result were basically zero in the fight with high corruption, they had small cases for which we didn’t need special Prosecutor’s office. I made some institutional changes and legal changes and in October 2005 I initiated a lobby which we set up, a special anti-corruption department. I had interviews and I chose a very good Prosecutor, he’s doing a very good job and I’m very happy. I proposed his appointment. Absolutely independent Prosecutor, good professional and he also started to replace the team. I want to say that it’s not so complicated. Once you have an institution, a special Prosecutor’s office, a special department with specialized Prosecutor on corruption fully independent, which has to be ensured, things are going fine. They also have everything they need. They have judicial police, they have funds, they have equipment, so from a technical point of view again they are in a very good position. I would say this is all it’s needed. And I repeat again they have to be let to work, no one should interfere with them and this is what happened in Romania since Oct.2005 and this is why we have results. We already have Members of the Parliament sent to trial, to courts, a member of the Government was sent to trial, judges, prosecutors so once you have good and independent Prosecutor things start to move. Technical equipment is also very important.” 02:10 What were the obstacles? “There were some political obstacles when I set up this department. And of course the politicians will never say we don’t want an anti-corruption department. They will find other ways to say the law is not good, it’s not in accordance with something so there were obstacles and in February 2006 in the first tour in the Parliament the law failed but then the second time after it was sent back to the Parliament by the President it was adopted after negotiations and discussions, so it wasn’t easy, that’s what I want to say.” 02:55 How do you make sure those investigations are not interpreted as political revenge? “They investigate people from all political parties including those in power so everyone considers this is not a hunt. And in addition all these case reach the Court so everyone can see these are real charges and not made up charges. And many of this cases are already in the Court.” 03:21 How involved is the Minister of Justice in the prosecutor’s work? “I do not interfere with the work of the prosecutors. I only propose the appointment and revocation of the top Chief Prosecutor based on management and I have to argue why I think this is good or this is bad then all the other prosecutors are appointed and disciplined and revoked by a Superior Council of Magistracy, a totally independent body. So, I do not call the prosecutors, I do not ask to see the cases, I do not tell them what to do. I see about the cases they do on TV, like anyone else. I know it’s difficult to understand and to believe, in particular for those who are in power because they never did that. But this is what I’m doing and it has very good results.” 04:15 On the declaration of assets “Other countries also have this declaration of assets but what I asked them to adopt was a very, very detailed declaration, the most detailed in Europe. I said Romania has a problem with corruption, we need to do this, it’s transparency of the public function. They have to write a lot of details. E.g. if you have a house, you have to write the exact address, the surface, how you got it, from whom, if you bought it what was the price, in which year. If you have a bank account again details, if you have shares in a company, then also the family has to fill it out: wife, husband, child. And also the income for the last year, so it’s very, very detailed. It was adopted in 2005, it was filled out by everyone and that’s important because it’s different than in other countries: they are published on the websites of each institution and the duty to fill this is for members of the Parliament, Government, President, judges and prosecutors, all civil servants. Over 100.000 people. 05:30 So I recommend to all these countries with problems unsolved on allegations of corruption, non transparent institutions to adopt such declarations and to make them public that’s very important.” 05:48 What other institutions can deal with fight against corruption? “Other institutions related to the fight against corruption they could be different controlling agencies like the Court of Accounts, the Financial Guard, the tax all those institutions which have power of control in different areas. And they can come up with corruption cases or allegations of corruption. We also have a special department in the Ministry of Interior for corruption within the police officers.” 06:28 What are the main steps to take? “The declaration for assets and interests is very important, for instance another thing we did is that we made a crime of the conflict of interests because that’s also producing corruption. I can give you an example. We have in a township an auction; we give public money to build a road or a school. And you have a public tender, now we said that if the members of the Commission to decide who wins the tender, they must not be relatives with the people of the companies competing for these funds, up to four grades. If they are relatives with the people who are coming to this tender, they have to refrain; if they don’t and they also get money or they satisfy another interest then this is a crime.” 06:28 State of corruption in Romania before Mrs Macovei arrived “You saw no cases in a country where the media were full of allegations of corruption and it was notorious things and you saw no cases, so why there weren’t cases? Because then politicians and prosecutors talked to each other and there was political interference with the prosecutors. I heard stories between 2000 and 2004 where prosecutors were going for a flagrant and they received calls to stop and come back. Now this doesn’t happen any longer.” 08:11 On abuse of independence of the judges, on the issue of independence “Since ’90 we kept talking about independence of the judiciary which is fine it’s a must but at the same time we have to think of responsibility of them. Otherwise we create a monster and I can give you an example. We have discussions, e.g. we have a person is convicted for one year of prison in the First Instance Court and then in the last Appeal Court ten years prison! To me this is no justice. I don’t know which is right: one year or ten years or maybe any of them. You can’t trust a system which produces so big differences on the same case, same evidence. Or we had property cases in which judges interpreted differently the law. So in one court you get on similar facts one decision and in another court an opposite decision. And they all evoke their independence. They say I’m an independent judge and I decide whatever I want and no one is allowed to ask me how. That’s wrong. Independence and unified jurisprudence go together. Look at the USA or UK or European Court of Human Rights in Strasburg, many countries. It’s a common law principle. You have to take into account what the other judges decided because things have to be regarded from the outside of the system. That’s what the judges don’t do usually. They isolate from the society and they say we are big independent on the top of this mountain and no one should even dare to say anything to us. That’s not good. They live in this society and they have to be accountable to the society. 10:05 This issue of independence has to be looked from the outside. In order to have a judicial system trusted by the people you have to look at what the people say, you have to gain the trust of the people. Now a person who comes in the judicial system because it has a case must know what to expect from the judicial system, must not go ahead for a lottery.” 10:34 What are the criteria to fulfil for the European Commission in regard to corruption? “What the Commission wanted and it will want it from your country as well is not to eradicate the corruption, that’s not possible. It’s to have in place an efficient mechanism to fight corruption, that’s why I recommended this special department of prosecutors. Once they start to work, ok you have corruption but you also have the prosecutors to find and investigate corruption and that’s important to have. This is what the Commission and all the member states, and the Romanian people were waiting to see. You have corruption cases but we also have people sent to trial for corruption. And we have this, this is done for Romania. We let them work, this is all we have to do, nothing more.” 11:18 High risk corruption areas “The areas with a high risk of corruption are customs, health system, local administration.” 11:29 Is fighting corruption a difficult task? “We don’t need one year to think what to do to fight corruption. If it’s not easy to have good law and to set up this anti-corruption Prosecutor’s office, … This depends on political will that’s all.” 11:44 Aerial views of Bucharest 12:01 General cutaways of Bucharest 12:10 Romanian flag 12:21 More Bucharest cutaways 12:28 END OF TRANSMISSION | 
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